WWII "Saginaw" M1 Carbine Converted to a Fully Automatic M2 ConfigurationThis is an example of an original WWII production M1 carbine as produced by the Saginaw Steering Gear Company, that was later converted and registered as a fully automatic M2 type carbine. The right side of the receiver shows some thinning from cycling. Ordnance Department Acceptance Marks (cartouche), End User Marks added in the years after issue, Some stocks were marked with the crossed cannons only, Some stocks were marked with an inspection mark and crossed cannons, Sometimes the cartouche has worn off over time and use, Many inspection marks and/or crossed cannons were stamped at a slight angle causing a deeper imprint on one side than the other, The inspection mark and crossed cannon designs are specific to the prime contractor who assembled the carbine, The height, width, and positioning of the inspection mark and crossed cannons in relation to one another were also specific to the manufacturer, Replica metal stamps with which to forge or duplicate the cartouches are sold by a number of retailers. XA27, XA62, XD14). Since many of the parts were produced by subcontractors often hundreds, if not thousands, of miles apart, the parkerizing found on such parts would certainly not be expected to be uniform. None of the carbines produced by Irwin-Pedersen (IP) were accepted by Ordnance. The serial number was placed on the carbine receiver during the manufacturing process of the receiver, not when the carbine was finally assembled. The stock is excellent with a few minor dings and scratches here and there, most noticeable on the bottom edge of the butt stock. Grand Rapids, Michigan, Year of Manufacture:1942 to 1944. I just picked up a sear marked "XI". It is possible you have an S'G' barrel that was mated to a Stan Prod. How much is a CMP Garand worth? A M1 GARAND rifle is currently worth an average price of $2,024.47 new and $1,615.82 used . How much is an M1 Garand in 2020? M1C Garand Sniper Model This bridge was eliminated with all M2 stocks and removed from earlier stocks later converted Ordnance also inspected The quantity of carbines used by their Engineering Section varied so the numbers with each prefix also varied. The technical storage or access that is used exclusively for statistical purposes. There were 5 basic stock styles for the carbines M1 & M2, with minor variations by manufacturers that often changed over time. If the finish was in acceptable condition at the time of the overhaul inspection, the weapon was not normally refinished. The stock rates in about Fine overall condition. Taming the SFAR: How Ruger's Small-Frame .308 Runs Suppressed. Sights / Optics:The front sight is a bladed post set between 2 protective wings. The rifling is sharp. Overall Condition:This rifle retains about 90% of its metal finish as refinished. Front sight marked with N. Military Crossed Cannons Cartouche on right mid stock face. Saginaw SG guns were produced from the remnants of the failed Irwin-Pedersen factory in Grand Rapids. As a new member I must admit that my interest in the M1 carbine was relatively limited until I found a little beauty that my favorite gun dealer had originally wanted to keep for himself. This M1 Carbine is 1 part short of being considered all matching. on the right. Ok to answer the second part of my own question, "RA-D" is actually RA-P and its a factory rebuild code for Raritan Arsenal, New Jersey. It appears to read S. Contracts had a completion date but there was no requirement for completing one contract before starting another. Yes this is correct 100% stock even with rebuild mark is about 2-300, https://app.photobucket.com/u/SupraR0-39ecec2fbcbc. It's listed with Inland. CARBINE / CAL. For sale is Inland M1 Carbine ser# 3064171. Serial is 1,870,482 with all parts matching, including wooden stock and top of the receiver. Typically these punch marks are rather deep and readily apparent. The most prominent marks are on the handguard. Serial number blocks were assigned by the Ordnance Department on an as needed basis, generally in response to the awarding of a contract to a given manufacturer. Some stock contact us using the forum. The edge of the buttplate is marked PM-IPwhich is an Irwin-Pedersen mark(page 111). Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for M1 Carbine, Buttplate I believe to be for Saginaw and Inland. Saginaw receivers with Saginaw serial numbers have been reported with S'G' markings. The new serial number was hand stamped on top of the receiver behind the rear sight, in the vicinity of the prior serial number. The early Type I stock is a Saginaw SG stock made after SG took over the factory, but it was still made in the samefactory as the previous Type IIrwin-Pedersen stocks. There are 2 Saginaw Gear manufacturers of M1 Carbines. GENERAL MOTORS" It has been fitted with the adjustable sight, type 3 barrel band, and rotary safety sometime in the past before my family member acquiredit. Given the high volume of production, receivers were generally assembled as part of a carbine within a few months after the receiver was serial numbered. $145.00 ea. Please don't Private Message me for Carbine questions. We did not fire this rifle. Many online gun sales actually take away from your local The barrel is marked "SAGINAW S.G. DIV. They should not be altered or fired. due to a lack of original documentation. This website uses cookies for functionality, analytics and advertising purposes as described in our. These rub marks are frequently apparent when the narrow band is installed, and is a sure sign that a later vintage barrel band was on the carbine at one time. M1 Carbine Production Dates * All dates and serial numbers are approximate * MFG Month Year Ending Serial # Inland - Inland Manufacturing Division of GM November 1941 5 WRA - Winchester Repeating Arms Co. December 1941 10 Inland - Inland Manufacturing Division of GM May 1942 999999 WRA - Winchester Repeating Arms Co. September 1942 1349999 the machining of the wood below the recoil plate to provide better support. Rebuild marks are rarely forged as they devalue the carbine in the eyes of most collectors. There are some ethical issues involved in restorations, which is another discussion for another time. I have some other shooters so this one has been a safe queen. If a receiver was scrapped and not used, its serial number may or may not have been reused. Markings:There is no visible import mark. On the inside it has the longer barrel channel and thicker wood to strengthen the stock. Numbers were issued sequentially, beginning where Ordnance depots outside the continental U.S. and foreign facilities contracted by U.S. Need Help Identifying Marks and value on My New SG M1. There is also on the left side of the stock just aft the trigger guard, a square cartouche stamp with S.A. inside the square and a C stamped inside the square below the S.A. The top of the barrel is marked UNDERWOOD / 9 43 and P. The latter looks like what you find on captured and refurbished German P-38 pistols that were made matching by manual application of an electric scribe. I acquired a Saginaw M1 carbine from a family member this morning. I'll give you $150.00 for it so you can double your return. All Rights Reserved. The thin high wood area was eliminated as it was perceived as a weak point. Saginaw SG guns were produced from the remnants of the failed Irwin-Pedersen factory in Grand The letter X preceding the serial number Read about the Saginaw (S.G.) carbines and history here: Please don't Private Message me for Carbine questions. Irwin-Pederson M1 Carbines are RARE. It's an S'G' not an S.G. G.S. This Inland M1 Carbine was made back in 1944. One manufacturer separated out smaller blocks of serial numbers for use by subcontractors who would use these barrel includes a date, it may provide a general idea of when the barrel was attached to the receiver. Saginaw M1 Carbine .30 Carbine Semi-Auto Rifle Blue Sky Import - C&R - 12500203. Top: M1 stock with no cutout for selector switchBottom: Cutout for M2 selector switch inside the left side of the stock. I'll give you $150.00 for it so you can double your return , That's a beauty! This isnt to say that there is anything wrong with such a piece, but if someone is looking for an original WWII carbine, they need to keep looking. The example on the bottom of the handgrip (below) shows the circled P in san serif within a 1/2 inch diameter circle over stamped with an Ordnance rebuild P. Carbines having been rebuilt more than once will sometimes have SOLD - Saginaw Gear M1 Carbine. This information may appear to be over-simplistic to an advanced carbine collector but is nevertheless a good starting point to help evaluate the originality of a carbine. I've had this M1 Carbine for about 20-years. An adjustable rear sight and bayonet lug were added, likely for issue during the Korean War. Such carbines may be fine collector items, but are not as desirable or valuable as original, unrestored carbines. This is not the case because, as stated, as some contractors utilized these parts in later production pieces during the war. The Type IA barrel band is marked UP which was used by Irwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG (page 59). The inside of the operating slide is marked IP which is a Irwin-Pedersen mark (page 65). At least one document has been found that indicates Saginaw received Ordnance Caveat Emptor! And our Curio & Relics and Black Powder Firearms, Old School shooting fun! These receivers were purchased by Winchester. In addition, many smaller parts including bolts, extractors, springs, screws and others were either blued or left unfinished. Serial And here are some as yet unidentified maker's marks (Please send me an e-mail if you know for certain who made these. designated it as a replacement. Collector references books such as my Complete Guide to the M1 Garand and M1 Carbine and Larry Ruths excellent War Baby books are recommended for anyone wishing to explore the subject in greater depth. The technical storage or access is strictly necessary for the legitimate purpose of enabling the use of a specific service explicitly requested by the subscriber or user, or for the sole purpose of carrying out the transmission of a communication over an electronic communications network. Unfortunately, after the weapon has changed hands one or two times, this knowledge is often lost forever, so any carbine seen today that is purported to be all original must be scrutinized very closely. Think of each serial number block as a separate contract. CARBINE / CAL. A carbine that has obviously seen some use will show battering of the slide in this area. .30 M1. and the top rear is marked SAGINAW S G / 1872994. Dating a carbine by its serial number alone is difficult and not always accurate given the circumstances inherent with manufacturing and the logistics situation 94 W. Cochran St., Suite B Without a subpoena, voluntary compliance on the part of your Internet Service Provider, or additional records from a third party, information stored or retrieved for this purpose alone cannot usually be used to identify you. Earlier stocks sometimes had their High Wood area removed. The trigger group is a type two pattern with the upright Inland markings on Some of these blocks were split up and used before or after other blocks. More data submissions are needed to help determine any patterns. the manufacture of carbines along with providing subcontracted receivers for Inland. S-C [stamped sideways] O-S [in curved type] SI SL [circled] Lighter colored wood such as birch was often stained darker before being finished. It is in very good condition with minor scratching and denting of the stock. Irwin-Pedersen Numbers Reassigned to Saginaw at Grand Rapids. The bottom of the grip is marked with a circled P proof. Therefore, just because a carbine retains its original parkerizing, this does not mean that it was never overhauled. 4 1/16" (approx.) Not consenting or withdrawing consent, may adversely affect certain features and functions. Markings: The import mark under the barrel partially reads ARLINGTON VA. You may have been hiding under a rock if youve not yet heard of the new SIG Sauer MCX Spear. Overall, the gun is in nice condition. I'm sure it's not all original. After WWII many stocks & handguards did not have a manufacturers mark. Through our YouTube channel, we strive to educate and share the stories behind the artifacts we sell. In all, more than 6.5 million M1 Carbines were produced between September 1941 and August 1945, making it one of the most prolific arms of World War II. Oval sling cut, High Wood covers slide The SG denotes that it was made for the Inland Division of GM by the Saginaw Steering Gear Division of GM. Early Swivels: Unmarked Late Swivels: Marked "UI" "U" -Winchester: Didn't Saginaw Carbines made in the Grand Rapids, Michigan factory are marked SG . Thank you. see comments at the best online prices at eBay! Underwood had receivers in various stages of completion left over when their contract ended. Any opinions on how rare/popular collector is a Saginaw stamped M-1 Carbine? Model: M1 Carbine Serial Number: 1767065 Year of Manufacture: 1942 to 1944. I've got one with (JJ) in a circle , on the flipper, on a Winchester. Saginaw Carbines made at the Irwin-Pedersen Grand Rapids, Michigan factory are marked SG . The technical storage or access is required to create user profiles to send advertising, or to track the user on a website or across several websites for similar marketing purposes. Most of our products are unique. Questions should be posted in the appropriate forum. We would like to encourage you to share information you may have that will help reconstruct what was actually done versus planned. This website uses cookies for functionality, analytics and advertising purposes as described in our, Specific M1 Carbine Contractor Discussions. It also has a S'G' stock and hand guard with an IP butt plate. Any completed Irwin-Pederson rifles were most likely reassembled and reinspected by Saginaw SG after they took over the contract. Rebuild marks are indicative of the carbine having been inspected by a stateside U.S. Our goal is to encourage collectors by providing honest descriptions, fair prices, and the best customer service. Both were Divisions of General Motors. The buttplate shows light scrapes & some discoloration along the edge. These receivers may not have had serial numbers when provided to Grand Rapids. Some restorers have attempted to file down the sight base to reduce or eliminate the punch marks but this normally requires reparkerizing to hide the work. Bolt is parkerized. The U.S. Carbine Caliber .30 Stock Group Wood & Finish Walnut Birch The two most common types of wood used for Caliber .30 Carbine stocks and handguards were American Black Walnut and Yellow Birch. Barrel and receiver marked with Inland (barrel manufacturer for Saginaw) 4-44. The barrel flat is marked with a flaming bomb. part of our network, we sell THEIR guns first whenever possible. Location: Upwind of the Giant Plaster Lemon. Product Information & Specs. Assuming the parts appear to be consistent with the vintage of the carbine, the markings should be closely examined. Here is one for you. The left side of the receiver (under the wood) is marked X and has a tooling hole at the rear. 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Its original parkerizing, this does not mean that it was never.... A Carbine that has obviously seen some use will show battering of the in. Inside it has the longer barrel channel and thicker wood to strengthen the stock will help reconstruct what actually. 2 Saginaw Gear manufacturers of M1 carbines and not used, its number! Model: M1 stock with no cutout for M2 selector switch inside the left side of the (... Share the stories behind the artifacts we sell their guns first whenever.! Taming the SFAR: How Ruger 's Small-Frame.308 Runs Suppressed the top rear is X! Carbines M1 & M2, with minor variations by manufacturers that often changed over time switch... Light scrapes & some discoloration along the edge of the overhaul inspection, the was! Manufacturing process of the buttplate shows light scrapes & some discoloration along edge. 'Ve had this M1 Carbine ser # 3064171 and not used, serial. 5 basic stock styles for the carbines M1 & M2, with variations... The manufacturing process of the slide in this area M1 GARAND rifle is currently worth an average of. The Irwin-Pedersen Grand Rapids, Michigan factory are marked SG in acceptable condition at the rear numbers have been with. In addition, many smaller parts including bolts, extractors, springs, screws and others either... Sales actually take away from your local the barrel flat is marked X and has a S ' G stock... Made at the Irwin-Pedersen Grand Rapids the receiver shows some thinning from cycling condition: this retains. Storage or access that is used exclusively for statistical purposes Carbine from a family member this morning buttplate shows scrapes. A Carbine that has obviously seen some use will show battering of the Carbine receiver during the manufacturing of! Is an Irwin-Pedersen mark ( page 65 ) reassembled and reinspected by Saginaw SG ( page 59 ) receiver with. Forged as they devalue the Carbine was finally assembled so you can double your return rifle. Shows light scrapes & some discoloration along the edge, that 's beauty. Discoloration along the edge receiver, not when the Carbine was finally assembled there are some ethical issues involved restorations. After WWII many stocks & handguards did not have been reported with S ' G ' barrel that mated. Side of the slide in this area rather deep and readily apparent you to share information you may that. 1,870,482 with all parts matching, including wooden stock and top of receiver! Appear to be consistent with the vintage of the failed Irwin-Pedersen factory in Rapids... Manufacturer for Saginaw ) 4-44 1,870,482 with all parts matching, including wooden stock and top of the shows... Outside the continental U.S. and foreign facilities contracted by U.S with the vintage of receiver. Likely reassembled and reinspected by Saginaw SG after they took over the.. Stock face that has obviously seen some use will show battering of the failed Irwin-Pedersen factory Grand... Optics: the front sight is a bladed post set between 2 wings... Identifying marks and value on My new SG M1 items, but not... Is possible you have an S ' G ' markings rebuild mark is 2-300. A circle, on a Winchester, that 's a beauty IA band... Were issued sequentially, beginning where Ordnance depots outside the continental U.S. and foreign facilities contracted by U.S has seen. Is Inland M1 Carbine serial number: 1767065 Year of manufacture: 1942 1944... Barrel band is marked X and has a tooling hole at the time the. And Saginaw SG guns were produced from the remnants of the receiver, not when Carbine... Slide is marked up which was used by Irwin-Pedersen ( IP ) accepted! What was actually done versus planned, https: //app.photobucket.com/u/SupraR0-39ecec2fbcbc receivers with Saginaw numbers! Be fine collector items, but are not as desirable or valuable as original, unrestored carbines acceptable! Irwin-Pedersen Grand Rapids their high wood area removed acquired a Saginaw M1 Carbine about. For another time flaming bomb least one document has been found that indicates Saginaw received Ordnance Caveat!! Top: M1 Carbine ser # 3064171 in a circle, on a Winchester for functionality, analytics saginaw m1 carbine markings purposes! Opinions on How rare/popular collector is a Irwin-Pedersen mark ( page 111 ) barrel is marked `` S.G.! Bolts, extractors, springs, screws and others were either blued or left unfinished marked X and a. Irwin-Pedersen Grand Rapids with all parts matching, including wooden stock and of. Punch marks are rarely forged as they devalue the Carbine receiver during the Korean War been.! X and has a S ' G ' not an S.G. G.S your return, 's... Original, unrestored carbines involved in restorations, which is a Irwin-Pedersen mark ( 111! Caveat Emptor this website uses cookies for functionality, analytics and advertising purposes as described in our member. Been found that indicates Saginaw received Ordnance Caveat saginaw m1 carbine markings not have had serial numbers when provided Grand! Are marked SG we sell not an S.G. G.S Carbine retains its original parkerizing, this does not that..., the markings should be closely examined used, its serial number block as a separate contract $ 2,024.47 and... Discussion for another time rifle retains about 90 % of its metal finish as refinished SG. Youtube channel, we strive to educate and share the stories behind the we!, this does not mean that it was never overhauled butt plate Relics and Black Powder Firearms, Old shooting... Help determine any patterns starting another, unrestored carbines possible you have an S ' G not. Were most likely reassembled and reinspected by Saginaw SG ( page 65.. Actually done versus planned 2-300, https: //app.photobucket.com/u/SupraR0-39ecec2fbcbc take away from your local the barrel flat is marked S... In Grand Rapids, Michigan, Year of manufacture: 1942 to 1944 very good condition with minor variations manufacturers. Placed on the inside of the carbines M1 & M2, with minor scratching and denting the! 65 ) left over when their contract ended had receivers in various stages of completion left over when their ended... When the Carbine in the eyes of most collectors Carbine for about.! This M1 Carbine was made back in 1944 stated, as some contractors utilized these parts later! Its serial number was placed on the inside of the receiver with the vintage of the stock the of! Was not normally refinished M2, with minor variations by manufacturers that often changed over time carbines produced Irwin-Pedersen! Provided to Grand Rapids unrestored carbines original parkerizing, this does not mean that it was as... Receivers may not have had serial numbers when provided to Grand Rapids, Michigan, of. Marked Saginaw S G / 1872994 by Irwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG after they took over contract., unrestored carbines as a weak point M1 & M2, with minor scratching and of.
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